Interview with Leone Pagano by Rosanne Sheridan for the Voices for the World War II Project, Center for Oral History, University of Connecticut, April 19^th, 2001.

Sheridan: Okay Mr. Pagano, I guess the first question would be where and when were you born?

Pagano: I was born in Palmoli… It’s a little town in province Cheiti, and I was born on April 11^th, 1929.

RS: Okay… and can you describe the town of Palmoli, where you lived?

LP: It is a small town, up in the mountain. The town is what, I think it’s what, 711 meters above sea level, which is… almost over 2000 feet above sea level. It’s a small town, most farmers, a few business. It was pretty good when I left there, but now everybody immigrated; they went other town and they went the big city, the north of Italy because there is no work. Everybody is looking for work. Now… when I left it there was about 3,000 people, a little town. But today is maybe… the most is 1,500 people, so it’s a small town now.

RS: Is it near any bigger cities in Italy, or is it…

LP: Yes, it’s near Vasta, which is on the Adriatic Sea, which is about 50,000 people. That’s the big city, close… it’s about twenty minutes away from Palmoli.

RS: Okay, and how long did you live in Palmoli?

LP: Twenty-four years… I came to this country when I was twenty-four years old.

RS: And… what about your family, did your family live with you in Palmoli?

LP: Well, I lost my father when I was seventeen years old, that’s a part of my family I… I lost my mother when I was six years old, so… and I had four brothers and two sisters, but everybody’s on their own all over the world. Some in Africa, some in United States, so all over the world. I was the only child left in my family, in my house.

RS: Okay… and… did you have other family in town at all, or…neighbors?

LP: Yeah, a lot of family, cousins, relatives, you know, friends, the closest family, that’s where it was.

RS: Okay, and did anyone in your family serve in World War I?

LP: Hmmm… no, I don’t think so because my older was here, was in United States, and my other brothers they were young, so…

RS: And… what did your father do for a living?

LP: Well, we had the restaurant and we had a butcher shop in town.

RS: Were there lots of restaurants in your town, or…?

LP: the only one…

RS: You had the only one?

LP: The only one…

RS: Oh wow! [laughter] And… did your mother help out with the restaurant, or…?

LP: My mother die like I say when I was six years old, but she was at the restaurant helping… helping my father before she died.

RS: Okay, and did your parents go to school at all, or…?

LP: Oh yes. We had up to fifth grade, grammar school. That’s all we had up there.

RS: Okay, so you went up to fifth grade as well?

LP: Fifth grade as well, yes.

RS: And…. What kinds of things did you learn about in school, like Italian history, or things like that…?

LP: Well, five years, I’ll tell you, it was hard. It was hard because they try to communicate everything in five years, so it was a little hard. Ah, history, geography… everything… math, everything.

RS: And… what kinds of things did you do as a child? What were your interests?

LP: As a child? Well, went to school, then I went to the trade school as a tailor for three years… and after that I took over my father’s business. I was eleven years old when my father says, “Well, it’s time to go to work.”

RS: Did you do anything for fun, like play with your neighbors or…?

LP: We used to play soccer ball sometimes, but there wasn’t much time for games, not much time for fun.

RS: And… so you were eleven years old when you started to work at your job…

LP: Yup… I was going to school for tailor and sometime I used to take care of my butcher shop for my father… yeah, and the restaurant… help him out.

RS: So what kind of things were going on in Italy when you were a child?

LP: Well, everybody was happy. There was no money, there was no rich people… but… everybody was good. It was pretty good. I had pretty good childhood. But then… the war came, I lost my parents and I was all alone, and [laughs] it was a little bit tough on me.

RS: Do you remember Mussolini?

LP: Oh yes.

RS: As a child what were your first memories of Mussolini; did you ever see him or anything?

LP: Well we used to go to school… ah, no, I didn’t see him personally, but we have to obey all his rules. We used to… like here we have the Boy Scouts, in Italy we have the Bailla, we used to call…. The kids from the… when you go to grammar school right away they give the little uniform and every Saturday we used to go to the gym, we used to do a lot of things. It was Bailla we used to call it, yeah.

RS: And Mussolini started that?

LP: Yeah. Matter of fact, I was eleven years old and knew how to maneuver the musketto we used to call it, the gun. Used to call nine- I think they used to call it the ninety-one, mother ninety-one gun. They used to teach us how to use that.

RS: So do you remember his march on Rome when all those people…?

LP: Yes, yes.

RS: Did you have any TV or any radio or anything like that?

LP: No, no. At that time… we had a little radio, but there was no TV.

RS: So you found out about Mussolini and all of his actions through… newspapers, or…?

LP: From newspapers, and like I said… they used to come to town, some people with the Fascismo party… they used to come to town and tell our teacher what to do, what we supposed to do. You learn from there.

RS: Okay. And how did your town react to Mussolini? Did they have any negative feelings towards him, or positive, or did they just…that’s the way it was, and…?

LP: Well… we used to follow the rules. There was some people who were against him because he was tough guy, but some people… they used to follow the rules… and wait, that’s all. What else can we do?

RS: And… how was the Italian economy during this time, before World War II, ‘cause I know, like, in America we had the Great Depression. So I’m sure there was a touch…

LP: Well, it was touchy there too, but like I said, a small town, you know… everybody was feeding…the stuff they were growing on the ground… the town, they had the grain, they have fruits, they have this, they have that. So, that wasn’t too bad. Whatever we had we would buy... that was tough. ‘cause there was no money. And then I remember, when I was a kid, they used… exchange stuff… like say the young kids they used to go buy cigarettes, well they can’t buy cigarettes with money. They used to bring eggs. They used to bring an egg, and they get two, three cigarettes. So… the same thing when they want to buy clothing or stuff like that they used to buy with no money, and then when August came, everybody get the stuff from the little farm and they give it to the people, they pay off. That’s what it was.

RS: And… did Mussolini help out with the economy at all? Was he…?

LP: Well, I have to say, he did a lot. He did a lot with the few years he was in there. He did a lot, but… there wasn’t much he can manipulate because there was no money, there was no… there was no nothing at all. So, he did his best but there was enough for the population.

RS: Okay, and were you aware of Mussolini’s problems with Greece and Ethiopia? Were you aware of all the things he was doing outside of Italy?

LP: Oh yes. Oh yeah, we used to know… [unclear] there was radio. We got all the news and… I remember as a kid whoever had a big radio they used to put a house speaker- loud speaker- in front the house and people in the square, everybody listen to what happened, you know. But there was no TV.

RS: How did you feel about his… Italy’s conquests in Ethiopia?

LP: Ethiopia? Well, he tried to do so... like I said before, he tried to do something, but there was no advantage for us. The only… the one advantage we had… the few people they went to Abyssina and work. And they used to send some money home. And that’s the only advantage we had, which it was enough.

RS: And were you aware of Hitler and the Nazis? What were your feelings toward Germany?

LP: Oh Germany, they were... they were very tough. I remember when they took over Italy. Like I say, we had the little butcher shop. We gave everything up. They took everything from us. And I remember they took me and my father to the slaughter house… they used to go round Italy… they used to steal pigs, they used to steal cows, they used to steal all kinds of animals. They used to bring to the slaughter house. My father and I and three more butchers from the town… we help the Germans, because with a gun in front of us, we can’t say no. I used to slaughter these animals, we used to make salami. They used to send to… the front line to the soldiers.

RS: So the Germans were in your town?

LP: Yes, yes. They were in my town for a long time.

RS; Did you… how did you feel about Mussolini… his alliance with Hitler, when Germany and Italy became allies?

LP: We couldn’t say nothing. We can’t say much. We just have to follow the rules, that’s all.

RS: And… when did you first realize that Italy was going to go to war?

LP: When I saw Germany occupy all the… like, the small nation around Germany. I knew that was time for us, too. So that’s when Mussolini decide to... to get the alliance with the German, but not because they want it. We had to do it. Because otherwise they will take over like they took over all the rest of the countries.

RS: And did you think that Italy had a good reason for going into the war, or did you feel that…

LP: Well, I didn’t say it was good reason, because half of the people from the town, they was in United States. Why we have to fight with United States? But, we had no choice. You know? Between Mussolini and Hitler, they say, “This is it, that’s what you want to do. You have to do it. That’s not what you want to do, this is what you have to do.” So… .

RS: Do you remember where you were or how you heard and what you were doing when you first heard that Italy had entered the war? I think they entered in… 1940.

LP: 1940, ’41, something like that, yeah… We were at home.

RS: Did you hear it on the radio?

LP: Yeah, radio. Like I said, whoever had the big radio put the loudspeakers in front of the house so the people on the square heard all the news.

RS: Did anything really change when Italy entered the war, or were things sort-of the same? You said the Germans were already there, right?

LP: Well, what… when they were there, and when the alliance was there wasn’t bad. The worst part came after, when we really we start to get enemy with the German. That was bad, that was… that was bad. Like I say, they took us to work. The used to come in the square in the morning and fill up the trucks with people, take them out and rebuild the bridges and sidewalks, well, anything.

RS: Were any of your family or your friends directly involved in the war? Like, did anyone go fight in the war, or…

LP: No, no, unless they was in the military, he was in the army. He have to stay there too.

RS: Did you know anyone in the army?

LP: No, not my family.

RS: During the war did you do anything for leisure, or recreation, or anything like that…free time, or…? [laughs]

LP: [shakes his head] There’s no such thing. There was no such thing. Like I say, there was work, work, and work.

RS: So your daily life pretty much just consisted of working at the butcher. Did you have a restaurant still, was it still running?

LP: Yeah it was still running… I mean, it was small place, three thousand people, it as a small town, the place was a small place. But we used to get customers when they used to come in, you know.

RS: Did the Germans ever eat at your restaurant?

LP: No.

RS: Were there any factories or anything like that built around in Italy? Did people get to have jobs… because in America there was a huge… like women would go to work and kids would even go around collecting scrap metal and things like that, all for the war. Was that like that in Italy or no?

LP: No, there was nothing like that. There was… when they were at war with the Americans there was a lot of people like you say, they used to go out and pick up scraps and try to rebuild something over the house. You know, they used to pick up the scraps and bring them down the basement, try to do something with them…[unclear] but there wasn’t much for people.

RS: Did you know about Pearl Harbor, had you heard about that on the radio?

LP: Yeah, on the radio.

RS: How did you feel about that, the Americans entering the war?

LP: Well, we didn’t like it much, but what can we do? What could you do? You know, whenever young people die, it’s always… yeah.

RS: And… did you know anyone? You said your brother was in America.

LP: Yeah, my old brother was here.

RS: Was here?

LP: In East Hartford, yes.

RS: Did you ever talk to him or write letters to him during the war at all?

LP: During the war every once in a while he used to write to me, and my father used to write in English back to him. I was… I was a kid.

RS: Did he ever say what, like his experiences here, how it was or anything like that?

LP: Oh he was… communicate with my father once in a while. But after my father died, he used to send me card for Christmas, New Year’s or something like that.

RS: What was the general mood of your town during the war; like, how did your neighbors feel, and did life just go on as usual, or was there a lot of sadness, or…?

LP: There was sadness for one reason: there was no money in town. Like I say, everything- it was exchange. You give me this, I’ll give you that. You do this for me, I’ll do that. But there was no money around. That’s… that’s the only reason why I am in this country because we had the little business there, but I couldn’t run it, there was nothing to do. So I remember soon after the war… there was one American, an Italian guy from East Hartford who came to town, who wanted to see what happened after the war. And he came to my place and we give him a room to sleep. And he was at my bar, and he see me work, the way I operate business. So at the end of the night he says to me, he says. “I want to ask you one question.” He says, “How do you make a living?” I says, “Why?” “What,” he says to me, “I saw here all night long you open up the cash register three times, and the rest you put on paper. Everybody get a beer and put it on the paper, every glass of wine you put it on the paper, every coffee put on the paper.” He says, “When you collect?” I says, “August come and I pay for something, they pay [unclear]... I have to do the same thing to the people that give me the stuff… “ I say, “Hey [laughs] I have to wait! That’s how it was. So when this guy came back to United States, talk to my brother, says, “Look, why you let the poor kid look after [unclear] this young. Why you let the poor kid suffer in Palmoli? Why don’t you send for him.” That was the time my brother sent the paperwork and asked for me, if I want to come over. I say, “Sure! Why not!” I can’t wait for it. And after he send me the paper, like I said, Mr. Dodd, Thomas Dodd, he did all the paper work that was supposed to be done, and after little while I came to United States. That was the reason why I came here; there was no living there.

RS: And… the Americans were in Italy, weren’t they? Like, eventually, during the war… the Americans came. Did you ever see any American soldiers?

LP: Oh yeah, oh sure, they came right into town. As a matter of fact, while there was fighting, let’s see, about five miles away from my town, there was the German on one side and the American people on the other side. It was the… I think the Eighth Army came to our town, ‘cause there were two big armies, invade Italy: Fifth and the Eighth. The Fifth went to Rome and the Eighth went to Sicily. So those people came to Sicily who came to town. And… it was bad, it was bad. They fight five miles away from us. And look in the window you can see everything. American flags flying… all the German fleet, they burn all the German fleet five miles away from us. You could see everything.

RS: Did any Americans stay in your town or did they just travel through?

LP: No, no, they stay, they stay, sure, they stay.

RS: Did you meet any of them or get to talk to any of them, or…?

LP: Yes, but… we meet this American, that’s all. Nothing close, nothing.

RS: Did any of them ever eat in your restaurant?

LP: Oh yes, some. [unclear]… lunch wagon. They used to come in for cup of coffee sometimes.

RS: Were they nice?

LP: Oh yes, they very nice.

RS: Did you see any African American soldiers at all?

LP: Yes. I remember once they came to my… the butcher shop. At the time we have no electricity. My father operate… there used to be some of those homemade lamps, called kerosene. But we don’t have kerosene either. So we used to use gasoline from the American soldier. Well, the black people used to come in the butcher shop. They used to drink bottle of wine, they give us some gas, some gasoline for the lights. Because my father was in United States long time ago, and he used to speak English to them. So they made a little friendship.

RS: Well, that’s good. And how did the entire feel about the Americans, were they glad to see them?

LP: Oh sure, they were jumping for joy.

RS: Did you know that the Americans were gonna help out, or how did you…

LP: Couldn’t be any worse. Couldn’t be any worse than what it was. So even if they didn’t want to help us there was nothing worse they could do. But, they did a lot. They help a lot. As matter of fact I remember one episode, a small episode. There was just the last days of the American peoples, they was about a mile away from us. This guy come in, tall guy, like Texan, come in and stopped at the restaurant to eat. And my father, says to my father, “Is he German? Or is he an American?” My father says, “I don’t know, he came with horse, yeah, he came with a horse.” He put the horse in the stall and come in and get a meal. He says, “You have a room to stay?” We say, “Yeah we have a room to stay,” so he stayed… And my room was next to him where he was sleeping. And one night, motorcycle, German motorcycle, come into town, because our town… my place was right in the square. German motorcycle come in and there was two German soldier in the square. Now, there was like a little cave under the ground, the German people they had all the ammunition there hiding- you know, to use against the Americans. Like I say, because something was a mile away because [unclear] was a mile away, the German, they had no use for it. So the German motorcycle came to tell those guys just blew all the ammunition so when the American come in you don’t have any ammunition to use against us. This guy when he would do everything together tell my father says, “Look you know they have ammunition under the cave there tomorrow, tomorrow morning they are going to blow up the square. And these people they put wire with a fuse on all the ammunition that was under the cave, and they took a roll of the wire, one on each side with a stick, and they run through the town, all the way down to the end of the town, and they light the wire, but my father, after the guy told him about, he went to the cave, and diffused everything. So there was no blood there, but up to the town there was another place like that that nobody knew about- the thing blew up. So I told my father, I says, “I think this guy is American, he is not a German, he tell us the stick, I think he is American.” My father says, “I don’t know…” In other words, in the morning the guy got up, had a cup of coffee, and took off. Then the American people came to town around midday, in the middle of the afternoon, something like that, and the first tanker came to town, and never seen this guy, he was a spy, he was a spy. He stay at our house a couple of days, and then we find out he is a spy.

RS: Did anyone else stay with you ever, or just that guy?

LP: No, just that guy, just that guy. And he left, he never left a name…the only thing we got from him, he left the horse, I says to my father, “Use that horse. It’s yours.” My father says thank you, what can I say. Two days later, two farmers came to town, and says, “ You have my horse.” [laughter] I said, “I don’t know who it belong to, if it’s yours, take it.” I said that to the horseman. Yeah, yeah the German, I mean this guy took the horse from the farmer.

RS: When did you first realize that Italy wasn’t going to win the war?

LP: When they started. [laughter] There was no match, there was no match.

RS: How was the Italian army?

LP: Well, like I say, they had to stay there because Hitler, you know, they can’t say, “No.” But nobody was killed. Matter of fact, like I say, there were brothers in this country. They say, “What do we have to do, fight the American people? Could be my cousin, my brother in the army there and I’m gonna kill him. So they start to take off, soon as the German [unclear], they start to take off… they give up.

RS Was there anyone in your town who had a relative in the war or anything like that? In the army, or anything like that?

LP: Oh yes, yes. Her uncle [gestures to wife] was… who was it… Yugoslavia, a cousin that was in Yugoslavia? At that time it was, I don’t know what they call it now. Yeah, there was some people that we know.

RS: Did you know anyone who was killed during the war?

LP: Some, some they were killed, too. I cannot remember, I was young kid.

RS: How did your feelings toward Mussolini change during the war?

LP: Well… he had to do it, like I say. First of all, he had to do… he have to get together with Hitler because he knew there was no choice. Hitler would take over like he took over all the other countries. So Mussolini had to play the part. So he said, “Okay, I’ll do whatever you say.” But the Italians, they were all against him. Matter of fact, you see what happened to Mussolini! [laughs] They kill him… they hang him in the middle of a square.

RS: Did you know much about the Italian Resistance? Like the French had the French Resistance against the Germans in France. It was, like, an underground group of people who would try to sabotage things for the Germans. Was there anything like that going on in Italy?

LP: Not in our town, no, no. We had the big… we heard about the big battle, Casino, Monte Casino, and matter fact before I came here I went to see the cemetery, which was American cemetery. It was Casino… a lot of Americans… which was… I can’t remember the name of it. But I remember the soldier they belong to the United States…. They had a big cemetery… Barrokino, they was from Morocco. All the soldiers from Morocco who died.

RS: Did you know anything about the concentration camps, the German concentration camps?

LP: Not in Italy, no. Part of my town, it was [unclear].

RS: Did you know anything about the fate of the Jewish people in Germany? Did you hear anything about that? Did you hear anything about Hitler exterminating people, and…

LP: We heard about it, yes. Like I said, we had the radio and two people…

RS: When did you find out that Mussolini was captured?

LP: The date… I don’t remember. I don’t remember the date, but soon as it happen, we know. I cannot remember the date.

RS: Oh no, I wouldn’t expect you to remember the date. Were you glad to know that he was captured and taken from power, or did you…?

LP: Well, we glad because that was the end of it, the Fascismo, it was the end of it. But, we realize there was… he had nothing to do with it. He had just to follow Hitler’s steps, to stay alive. Matter of fact… [laughs] he departed from Hitler, that’s what happened.

RS: What was your reaction to his execution?

LP: It was… to me, it was not too good. If they want to kill, kill him, but the execution that way… I wouldn’t want no enemy to die like that.

RS: They… didn’t they show his body in the town square, or something like that? Like not your town, but in Milan or something?

LP: No… Milan, yes, Milan, yes. It was… like I say there was no TV at that time so we can’t see what happen [laughs].

RS: And… what was your reaction when you heard that the Germans had surrendered and that the war was over?

LP: It was to thank God. It should be a little earlier, but… that was a grace, let’s put it this way. That was a grace…

RS: And… what were the political conditions in Italy at the time of the European surrender? Like, with Mussolini not in power any more, who… there was a king.

LP: There was confusion, there was confusion. Matter of fact there still confusion. In Italy you see they change governments every six months. There still confusion. But the government in Italy, it’s not solid. I don’t know why, and the country doing very well, but the government, is…

RS: They went over to a democracy, didn’t they?

LP: Yes… but there was I mean everything. There was democracy, there was communist, there was socialist. So many… the people, they don’t know, they don’t know.

RS: Did the economy pick up at all after the war, or…?

LP: Oh yes, very well, very well. Matter of fact when I went back the first time I started to see the progress, I says to myself, gee, I could leave this country because there was nothing. And now these people are better, better off than me. There was… it was unbelievable.

RS: Did the Americans help at all, or…?

LP: Oh yes, sure.

RS: What were the challenges you faced in rebuilding your life, like how about your community, were there any things you had to rebuild, like buildings or things like that after the war, or?

LP: Yeah but there was a lot, a lot of grants from the state. From the country, from the town. It was all grants. They help with everything.

RS: When did you decide to come to America? When did your brother send you the letter?

LP: 1954… 1954. I can’t remember the date.

RS: And what did you do in the meantime in Italy, between the end of the war in 1945, about…

LP: Keep to what I was doing. Day by day…

RS: The butcher shop?

LP: Sure, day by day try to live it up, that’s all, what can you do.

RS: When you came to America, where did you go, did you go here?

LP: I came to East Hartford, yes. Came here and the first job was on Asylum Street in Hartford, as a tailor. Because at the time I didn’t know the language, I couldn’t do anything else, so I went to work for Captains and Son as a tailor. They used to give me garment to fix or to build and I didn’t have to talk to nobody, just do my work.

RS: Did you live here in this house, or…?

LP: I live with my brother for a while, until I have enough money to buy the house.

RS: Did you stay in contact with people in Italy?

LP: Oh yes, sure. I go back to Italy almost… every couple of years I go back. Because we still…I still have a property there. Yeah, I still have the place that I used to use as a bar… and restaurant. I still have property, I can’t forget that, I have to go back, have to go back. Every once in a while I have to go.

RS: What was your reaction to America when you came here?

LP: [laughs] Money! When I see the green paper, I says I’m not gonna leave here until I have the reason to leave. Otherwise…I thank God… everything turned out pretty good for me.

RS: So everyone was nice to you, and…?

LP: Oh yes, oh yes. I learn the language in short while. I went to school couple nights, that’s all, just couple nights. I used to work for Red Coach Grill at that time, washing dishes. And… my first check when I went to work for couple nights it was about half of what it was supposed to be. I says forget about school, I gotta go to work. So I couldn’t go to school anymore. And I kept working as a dish washer and in a little while got to cook, then chef. I was a chef five years at Pasquale’s restaurant five years. I was a chef for the Graymoore restaurant on the Berlin Turnpike… [phone rings]. Sorry.

RS: That’s okay. On the Berlin Turnpike?

LP: Yes, Berlin Turnpike, it’s Graymoore restaurant… it’s… not there now.

RS: And… did you have your own restaurant eventually?

LP: After that, yes, I bought my own restaurant. I own three restaurants, not at same time, one after the other. I saw what I was supposed to do… What I did, I used to buy old run-down restaurant, buy property, learn the business, build the business, and when it was ready to sell, I sold it. I sold that one for another one. Then I do the same thing, I rebuild it. I sold that one for another one. So I do that with three restaurants.

RS: And they were all in East Hartford?

LP: There was one in East Hartford, which was Pompeii, we used… maybe you live in East Hartford?

RS: Yeah, isn’t it down there on Main Street?

LP: Yes.

RS: Yeah, okay.

LP: My wife was devoted to Madonna de Pompeii. She wanted me to name the restaurant Pompeii. So we named the restaurant Pompeii- but that was before they got the girls! [the Pompeii was afterwards, and still is although under a different name, a strip club] So then I took a partner. My partner’s idea was to put the girls in there, so I say, “Alright, you buy me out.” He took over and I buy something else. Then I went to Franklin Avenue and bought a little tavern. I made the restaurant in there, put the liquor license, which now is Casa Mia. That was my second restaurant. Then I get rid of that one and I bought another on Wethersfield Avenue, you know? Which I named Madonna. I give it my son’s name, which was Madonna. We had that for almost twenty years, until I sold it. And I says to myself, I said, now, I work all my life and I have no money in my old age! So when I sold that I went to work for the bank. Went to work Connecticut National Bank, I work for them almost ten years, get myself a pension from them. Which, that’s what I live with now.

RS: Okay, I guess that’s it.

LP: You got everything?

RS: Yup! Thank you!

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