Butler: Where and when were you born?

Palmer: I was born in Clinton, Connecticut, um, January 20, 1921. Thats sort of significant because my father was in the war, the First World War, and my mother waited for him and then they were married after he had come back.

RB: Talk a little bit about your childhood. Did you have any siblings?

BP: I had two brothers. They were closeuma year and nine months and the other one was two years younger than that so we were a compact family. My father worked in the post office which was a very secure kind of job, and my mother, of course, stayed home. During the Depression a secure job was important. Also he worked very hard on the house and very hard on the garden. And my mother did all the "housewifely" things. As I was growing up she became interested in Extention Service and that influenced our lives greatly.

RB: Okay, in what ways?

BP: Umshe introduced us to vitamins and a balanced diet and

then she introduced me to 4H and taught me how to sew and to cook and to can and later I learned to freeze vegetables. But wed been greatly aided by the household garden and that kind of activity to support the income from outside.

RB: And you still enjoy cooking and gardening today?

BP: Im tired of cooking! [laughter] But I dont mind the food preservation, so I continue to do that. Well, I continue to cook, too. [laughter]

RB: Okay, um tell me about your education. Where did you go to school and did you like it?

BP: I loved school. I was an eager child. Uminterestingly enough, when I was in first grade the schools became rather crowded, so the first grade was moved to a separate space, the Town Hall for that matter. And from then on there were two grades in one room and finally we were able to have a single grade in one room. But uh, I often wondered about those poor school teachers who were competing with one another for the use of the air space. Each teacher had her own group. I dont remember how many there were, probably fourteen[under breath]it must have been more than that. [laughter] But I remember being in third grade and looking for my friend who was probably going to be in fourth grade and I stood up and looked around and she wasnt there. Because of the crowding, they had moved some of the children, advanced them fromskipped a grade. She had skipped fourth grade which was disastrous. She went from third grade to fifth. I had gone from first grade to third, but that wasnt the same as third to fifth. So we were at a crowded school and by the time I was in seventh grade they had built a new school. Clinton had always, from 1880 something or other, had a high school and they had set the first eight years within the confines of this high school. And they had the high school and the grammar school all there. This was the time they were consolidation schools throughout the state.

RB: Okay, Now when she moved from third to fifth grade that--was it because of ability or was it just

BP: No it was simply because of the overcrowding. I think she probably was capable, but it spoiled her educational flow and she took five years to finish high school instead of four. And her cousin, who skipped fifth grade, took six years to finish high school.

RB: Wow! So it really did affect them.

BP: I think it damaged them both.

RB: Hmm. Thats interesting to know.

BP: Butuhfrom first to third was not a serious problem. More social than educational. And I went through high school in four! [laughter] And from there, um I did very well in high school and the principal convinced my father that I should go to college. And I was ready for that, it was a good idea. The principal, earlier, had convinced my grandfather that my mother was capable and ought to go to secretarial school in New Haven and this was quite outstanding. She got the train and went to New Haven. So it was a pattern set: you educate your daughters just as well as your sons.

RB: Thats great! [laughter] So did you-where did you go to college?

BP: UConn. As I had mentioned we were in 4H and thats how I met my husband. Cause they had had a special salesmanship program introducing capable high school students in the 4H group to the college and had a 4H weekend and he and I were there. Thats when I met him. We were both about sixteen.

RB: Was he also in the 4H at?

BP: No he was in Ellington, and we came together at UConn. And we went through four years more or less together not precisely. [laughter] He majored in agricultural economics and I majored in home economics preparing to teach. I taught for a little bit but the war came along andoh I was doingI started to teach but went into 4H as a 4H county club agent. After Id been doing that for four or five months, he was in the south, and he was looking for his wife! [laughter] We had been married just before graduation. So I went down there.

RB: Where in the South?

EP: Columbus, Georgia. And from there, the rest is history. [laughter]

RB: Well lets talk about history! What--How did you find out your husband would be entering the war? Was he drafted or?

BP: Ohthey had a very excellent program of ROTC and he went through that. All the freshman and sophomores were required to take ROTC. But he liked the idea of becoming an officer.  His father was well aware of the times and so forth, so he pretty much believed that we were going to go to war. 1939, Hitler invaded Austria and we all talked about that. So, Ted wisely chose to go into the advanced ROTC so I knew he was going. Umhe had some special summer camp when he was a junior. So his senior year, our senior year, was Pearl Harbor. I had just finished my practice teaching the Friday before Pearl Harbor and was invited to go back as a substitute teacher in Plainfield because the teacher needed to do something. And all kinds of problems had erupted over the weekend. And there were little girls, little French girls, who, uh, their families had come from Canada to work in the fabric mills. And these little girls were wondering where their brothers were.

RB: Wow.

BP: It was traumatic.

RB: How did you deal with that?

BP: I dont remember. I think I tended to play over those emotional things if at all possible. And keep on with the business. Thats what I think I did.

RB: So you said that your husbands father was obviously into world events?

BP: Yes, he was.

RB: So did he read newspapers, listen to radioHow did he get information?

BP: Welllets seenumber one, he was college educated in a time when not too many were. He was interested in politics in Ellington. He wasat that time they had trial judgesjustices within the town and he was one of those. He was a Justice of the Peace. And Ted became a Justice of the Peace. And one of
my other sons that you dont know is a Justice of the Peace because Dad was. So they go along like that. My father-in-law was prominent in town largely because of his interest in town affairs and his capability. He was a very capable person. He was well known throughout the area.

RB: What were your feelings aboutbefore Pearl Harbor What were your feelings about the war in Europe? Did you agree with him thinking that Americans would eventually go to war?

BP: Yes, my roommates and I had talked about it. One of my roommates had a radio and we listened to it and read the newspapers. Not very much, college students dont do that much, but we did read some of it. And we were convinced with Hitler in Austria and Czechoslovakia going, we would be in the war. Besides, our fathers had been in World War I and that was halfway normal. So when he went I didnt like it, but I accepted it.

RB: How did you feel when he went to the war, obviously you
didnt like it but were you?

BP: I was a great optimist. I had no worry that he wouldnt come back. I never believed that for a minute. His mother was probably more aware than I. And she was more concerned.

RB: Did you correspond with him while he was overseas?

BP: Oh yeah. Uhwell first he went to Ft. Benning, then he went to Camp Croft in South Carolina. I kept writing letters and he kept writing letters, "Why dont you come down? Why dont
you come down?" So when Labor Day came in 1942 I went down and never came back. Thats too bad. Then, we had our first child and he didnt go overseas until Sharon was old enough to say, "Bye, bye Daddy" and that was poignant. And I was pregnant again and my sister-in-law came and we drove home from South Carolina to here.

RB: So when he went overseas, you came back to Connecticut?

BP: Yes. It was expected that I would go to his family. I didnt really think that was the greatest but I did what I was told.I went to live with his family. And, uh, it was probably a good thing because I had a good doctor and the baby arrived three or four months after we came home in Rockville. And it was a good hospital. So that worked out.

RB: So were you still in contact with your family very often? Were they still in Clinton?

BP: They were still in Clinton and every time I got enough gas moneyuh gas tickets you know you had gas tickets?

RB: Right, rationing.

BP: Every time I had enough saved up I would go home and bring my little two. And Id have to save up enough coupons for a week or two, maybe even a month possibly, and then Id come home. By that time I had my own apartment in the center of Ellington which was a good thing because sometimes the babies cried.

RB: Were you working at this time?

BP: No, I stopped working when I went south. And I thought I was going to do some more work, but no, I did community service things. And then we kept having children. He came home and, uh, we ended up with six. Its been very interesting.

RB: Did you know anyone in the community that didnt support the war?

BP: No.

RB: We tend to think that everyone

BP: Oh yeah thats a good question because, uh, the Korean War was something, ahhmost people supported that, but when we came to Vietnam, that was awful. That was a terrible thing.

RB: Yeah, there were a lot of protests.

BP: Yeah, and as I look back on it, the worst terrible thing was the way the government continued it when they shouldnt have. But at the time I was well brought up and all that, patriotic, so that I thought, "Well if the government says, they shouldnt have these protests." But its, uhthey were wrng.

RB: Well lets talk about the government during World War II. What did you feel about Roosevelt? Did you think he was a good leader?

BP: We were ardent Republicans so we didnt think much of Roosevelt. Uhduring the war, we did what we were supposed to do, but before that, we werewe had the Depression. And we had all these problems and thought all his Wonderful (sarcastically) programs were Socialism. And we didnt really think anything happy about Roosevelt. But we did what we had to to support what he proposed during the war. And umhmmI think we were kind of delighted to get a new president when Truman came in.

RB: How did you feel about Truman?

BP: Hes a democrat, too. [laughter] Um

RB: Well, we all have our faults, right? [laughter]

BP: Right! So one of the good things about Truman, and this is quite political, I think. UmTed had been over in the Philippines and he met, saw, MacArthur and MacArthur said, "I have come back!" Well Ted was an officer in the invasionwave that prepared this place for MacArthur to come back. If it hadnt been for him and his soldiers, MacArthur would not have come back. So Truman did a great thing, he fired him [laughter] for overstepping his bounds and authority. So thats what we thought of Truman.

RB: Now, what did you think when Truman okayed the Atomic Bomb? Well, first of all, where were you when you-when you heard about the Atomic Bomb?

BP: I was in Ellington. It did a lot of things. It finished the war. We continued to believe that if he hadnt okayed the bomb, we would have had a lot more casualties, we would have had a lot more war. Itmmmtended toward being a stalemate, I think. And we approved that. It was a terrible thing to do, and yet the result was a good thing.

RB: Today we tend to moralize it and argue both ways, but did you feel that most people at the time believed that it was definitely needed?

BP: Well it finished the war, and personally if it had continued, Ted wouldnt have come home so soon. It was in August, I think of 43 oh thats the wrong date, 44 and then he came home. Probably Ive got the dates wrong with that, too. 43 Sharon was born, 44 Martha was born, 45 was the bomb.

RB: Yup, I think so.

BP: UhSharon was about two, Martha was close to one. And if it hadnt been for the bomb, who knows how long he would have had to stay? And people tend to think, (gestures to herself) personally, it did some benefit for us. For the little children whose father was not home.

RB: And it also, you know, if you think about the Cold War following, you know, there were benefits and negatives to it as well. How did you feel-Do you think the Cold War would have happened if we hadnt had Atomic power?

BP: Thats an interesting thought. I dont know. Would the Germans have, would the Russians, I guess it was more the Russians, would they have asserted themselves to a greater degree? The Russians had gone into, they joined our side to defeat the Germans. And if it hadnt been for the bomb, we might have had a new eruption and continuation of the war.

RB: Mmm, its possible. An interesting thought.

BP: It certainly is.

RB: A scary thought. Ummlets talk a little about the community that you were in. Did you feel that the war brought new jobs into your community?

BP: Thats uman evolutionary kind of thing. I was in Ellington until Ted came home and we bought the house here. But Ive since talked with a variety of people in Tolland about where they were in the war and that kind of stuff, and uh jobs were not plentiful until Pratt and Whitney. And commuting to Pratt and Whitney was possible and all these people were able to get their jobs. One young fellow, my age now, tells me that when he graduated from high school, all his friends got jobs. That had not happened to the class beforehand. That was [figuring]44.

RB: Soyeah, because before the war there was the Depression and so many people were out of work. So, you think maybe the war helped the economy?

BP: Oh, it did here. It did in this vicinity. They had car pooling and people would arrive in the center of Tolland and go together. That continued for a very long time. And a lot of my friendshusbands were working in Pratt. And, umit was a source ofemployment for many years. It was a shock when they began to downgrade.

RB: It definitely was. What about women? Did you know any women who werewe hear of Rosie the Riveter, did you know any Rosies?

BP: Immediately you make me think of two. One of them was an"old maid" and a very fussy personworth talking about. But she got herself a job in Pratt and Whitney and she wore her Rosie the Riveter clothes. And she drove herself here and there. Umshe was a very independent person. Now, she had sisters who were housewives, wives of farmers and so forth. But not Lily, shetherejust to clear this up this was Lily Crandall who gave her property, more or less gave, to the town for Crandalls Park that we have the recreation area.

RB: Oh right, right, neat.

BP: So she was--she was, as I said feisty, she was opinionated, she was strong willed, and uhworth knowing.

RB: Did she enter the workforce after the war had begun or was she?

BP: I think she probably had a job before that but, Im sure, Im not sure where it was. But she must have been 40ish when she went to Pratt. The other one was a young woman, my age at the time, who had been recruited by Pratt at her collegeIndiana, Ohio, somewhere along there. They were out recruiting young women who were capable and she came in as an engineers assistant. That type of activity.

RB: Thats something as a student of history that we dont hear to often that

BP: Recruitment?

RB: Recruitments and recruiting women especially for jobs such as engineering. Its good to hear that they were.

BP: Mmm hmmm. They were having engineering assistants when Sharon was twenty, roughly, that was in 63. They were still looking for young women to do the assistant work for the engineers. And uh there were two levels, one of them was if you were good in math you could come into this job out of high
school. The other one was if you were good in math you could come into this job out of college. And this was definitely an assistants job, you were not one of the

RB: One of the boys?

BP: Not one of the boys. But that continued.

RB: During the War, did you participate in things like scrap drives, did you have a victory garden? Any of those things?

BP: My folks had a victory garden and they participated in scrap drives. I didnt, I dont remember why. Um I lived in the center of Ellington, and uh I didnt have much scrap. [laughter] That would be one of the reasons, and of course I had no space for a garden. I raised some radishes. [laughter] That was more of a joke than anything.

RB: Well of course you had so many children at that time I dont know what time you had to do these things, but uh

BP: Oh I didI did help with the Girl Scouts, um I dont know who took care of the kids, maybe I took them with me, uh, what I was doing was I was using my precious gas to drive them from the Girl Scout meeting-home. I think I probably wondered about it because they didnt ask me to do anything except drive them home. And I would have enjoyed participating, but that wasnt in the deal.

RB: You didnt ask to be a part?

BP: No I didnt. Im trying to figure out what I did with those children. I might have left them, put them to bed and left them for the three quarters of an hour that it required to go down to the church and drive the little girls home. Cause that was not a no-no as it is today. If they were asleep in their beds, they were "safe". And there was a family living downstairs, and they knew what was happening upstairs. And you asked if I corresponded with Ted during the war. Yes, and the mail came to the post office twice a day and I would put the children to bed at six oclock and Id run over to the post office which was not really very far, probably a quarter of a mile over and back. leave the children at home without me. It was not a no-no. [laughter]

RB: Lets talk a little bit more about your correspondence. You saidyou said you corresponded often when he was here in the United States before you moved down to, was it South Carolina? [she nods] uh and then when he went overseas, how often did you hear from him?

BP: Not very. He was a good writer. He wrote faithfully and all that but the letters didnt come all that fast. That reminds me I think I have all of his letters. His mother received letters and we shared them. And possibly one of his sisters, he has two sisters. Um oh his sister Ruth was in the WAVEs.

RB: The WAVEs?

BP: Womens Auxiliary Volunteers? A Navy organization, the WAACs was an Army organization and the WAVEs was a[phone ringing] Navy. And Ruth was in the Navy and she went to Florida and worked as an aerographers mate. Weather. And thats where she met her husband and shes been in Florida ever since.

RB: Does she continue working in the military after the war?

BP: And Ruth was close to he father. This is interpretation and I think it is not exactly correct. I think Ruth had it in her to be a teacher anyway. But um she was close to he father and it madeum(long pause) I guess you better erase some of that when youre typing it up. Um I think that Ruth tended to be her fathers child rather than her mothers child, and so she followed her fathers footsteps rather than her mothers footsteps, but then again my mother-in-law had been a schoolteacher as well in a one-room school in Rhode Island. And Im talking about 1916, 17 so that wasuhsidelight on her. Ruth was good in math and she became a math teacher in Florida and then she got her doctorate, she got her doctorate in school psychology. She did quite a testing program in Florida. That was -- that was what she did instead of coming home. [laughter] She had two sons.  Break while Mrs. Palmer uses the phone.

BP: as a student going through grammar school. When we were little we had lots and lots of different classes. We had a history class and we had a math class and we had a geography class and I hated geography and I hated history. Umityou know, dates and locations and capitals and all that. But by the time I was in seventh grade, there were changes going on and one of them was social studies. We had a combination, our social studies book was for that purpose and they tried to integrate geography with history and what was happening and one of the illustrations in my social studies book was a fast speeding convertible with happy people in it wasting resources.

RB: Oh neat. (laughter)

BP: It was. As you see it made quite an impression. From then on we did have social studies and high school we had history and geography was just tied on to the history. And that was about it.

RB: Thats kind of what theyre--they are trying to go toward more now especially in the middle school setting is instead of just having a history class, make it fit with everything else. If youre talking about World War Two, talk to the English teacher and see if maybe for a book they could read The Diary of Ann Frank. Make it fit, make the kids understand how its not just the subject that you learn and you go off into the world and learn other things. It is a good movement, I think.

BP: I think it is very educational anduh the only problem that itthat we could have was if I stood up and gave them my views and they didnt go home and tell their parents what had been talked about. It really needs to have the families involved in the social studies education.

RB: Definitely, the family should be involved in everything, every aspect of learning.

RB: Okay. Now you said before that your parents had had a victorygarden?

BP: Yes.

RB: What kind of things, did they plant? Do you remember?

BP: Well, I said, "victory garden," but my parents had always had a garden. Coming from a farming tradition of changing times, that was the way they handled their family needs. Most of the people I knew had gardens of some sort. They didnt raise potatoes except possibly during the war. But they had a lot of other vegetables. And I mentioned that my mother had learned nutrition and, uh, that kind of garden they had was fair size and had a wide variety of things in it. Some things we didnt have, like eggplant. We didnt have broccoli, I dont even remember cauliflower. Those were "modern" vegetables to us but we had turnips and cabbage and lettuce and carrots and beets and lots of string beans, lima beans, corn.

RB: Did you find yourself relying, or did they find themselves relying more on their garden for nutrition during the war because of the rationing?

BP: UhI dont think  I dont think "war" applies there. I think it was the same. But there is one thing that did change. Before the war my father always did the shopping. And my mother would have a list of what she needed and she didnt really get around an awful lot. But, because of rationing and because of standing in lines, my father made a point of coming home from the post office, a mile and a half, with his automobile and bringing my mother to the grocery store and she did the shopping. But that was new because of rationing and time. Otherwise, he would just pop off to the grocery and bring home whatever it was she needed.

RB: Why do you think she was buying the things now? Was it?

BP: Because of time.

RB: Time-wise, okay.

BP: Because of time and you had to wait untilsometimes you had to wait until the supply showed up in the grocery store. It was more European than, than wed experienced. But it wasnt, I dont think it was that great a thing. Well, when I went to South Carolina and established a household, I always did the shopping, but we always had rationing at that time. And you watched your little red disks and you little blue ones, and the little coupons. Certain ones came in on certain days. You must have heard that. Well thats why Mother took over the shopping.

RB: Okay. Did youdid you feel that it really affected what you wanted to buy? Did you want to buy more of certain things and werent able to buy them, or?

BP: Sugar you couldnt get. Meat didnt really make much difference to me because when Ted was overseas, um I didnt care if we didnt have an awful lot of meat. Ummy father-in-law knew a butcher where he could get meat. But I didnt like that butcher. My mother and I had taken notions to tradespeople from time to time. [laughter] So I didnt like him so I wouldnt buy from him. Besides it was quite [raises voice] possible that he had some black market activities going on. I never approved of that.

RB: What did you think it was? Did you know or?

BP: I think he had a source of meat because being a butcher thats all he sold. And, uh, I guess probably the word went out that whats-his-name hadhad meat in his back room. But I

RB: Was there a lot of black market things going on?

BP: No, not that I was aware of.

RB: Not too much, hmm. Something I hadnt thought about before.

BP: No. Well I hadnt really thought about it either. One of the activities that was possible was youbeing a butcher, you could have raised your own animals, and slaughter your own
animals. And if you hadnt recorded them, they werent taxable so-to-speak, rationable.

RB: Right, so they kind of hid them?

BP: I dont know, you see theres a lot of things you dont know, somebody else my age probably does know. But I dont. I think of this phase of the 1940s as similar to the Underground Railroad. It happened but you didnt talk about it-even today there are things in our past that weve more or less forgotten.

RB: Thats interesting. Lets talk about youryour leisure time during the war, if you had any. [laughter] What kinds of things did you like to do?

BP: Oh. What kind of things did you do? What kind of things did you like to do? Umm largely I played with the children. Went for a walk with the children, strolled the stroller. Umm I liked to read and sometimes I would get involved with reading and forget to do what I was supposed to do and now all of the sudden, the children would remind me and so, Id get lunch or whatever. Welloh I would visit the neighbors. That was a possibility. There were quite a few neighbors that I knew in Ellington, new acquaintances, but I would go and visit them for an hour or so. And after I came here, that wasnt quite as easily done as when you were in Ellington you could walk. When we had our first baby, I got a laundry basket, because baby baskets werent available. I bought a stroller which was a horrible thing. It had wooden wheels and itd squeak and fall apart. My mother-in-law saw to it that I had a proper carriage when I had the second baby. And it was a nice one and we used it for a lot of years and a lot of babies and a lot of things. But when we had the first one, there just wasnt anything like that on the market. We were not exactly rich and we werent exactly poor and our families helped us with one thing or another. Most of our furniture came from family. In fact this table [gesturing to the table where we are seated] was my mother-in-laws table at that time and that buffet was hers at that time. Shed gotten it second hand and we got it third hand anduh it was fine it was sturdy.

RB: Obviously! [laughter]

BP: So thats how we pass things along. Thats how we furnished my apartment.

RB: It sounds like you were pretty close with your family and actually on both sides with your husbands family as well as yours

BP: I think thats right

RB: Thats nice.

BP: Yeah, it was emotional support as well as monetary.

RB: Did you needdid you feel like you needed a lot of emotional support when your husband was gone? You said you were very optimistic but Im sure there were times.

BP: Yeah, I can remember one time that I was needing, uh, some kind of contact. It was winter and I was home in Ellington center with the babies. And up there on that hill was my in-laws and I liked them and I thought Id go visit them. I put the babies, or they had been in bed when this void came in my day. And I walked through the snow clomp, clomp, clomp through the fields. It took me quite a while I suppose. And when I got up there, my father-in-law knew why I came but, he knew I had left the children at home so he got his car out and he drove me back. I dont know how long I stayed and talked with her. She was a very comfortable mother-in-law.

RB: Thats nice.

BP: Yeah it is. Its really good.

RB: What kinds of things did you talk about? Did you find yourselftalking about the war?

BP: No, not often. Oh we talked about Teds letters I suppose. But we talked aboutgossip about the neighbors. [laughter] Yeah theyEllingtons a small town. We all learned who was related to whom. Who not to speak about to who. We learned those things.

RB: You had said before that one of the things you liked to do with leisure time was visit the neighbors. What did you do? Did you sit around a talk?

BP: Mmm.[yes] Um you said you liked gardening and I thought "ooo," maybe youll come over and look at my garden. Well one of my neighbors was a gardener. And I talked with her about garden things. And I have still a lilac tree that she gave me when we moved over here, from her place. So that kind of thing. The other thing that she liked waswell she was a seamstress and she sewed for doctors wife and she showed me the new fabric that she had gotten and the new patterns that she had gotten. I was just as interested in them as she was. Then there was a neighbor right next door who loved my children. She was a good grandmother type. But her children had half grown. So we just had a jolly time playing. When she shelled peas, my three-year-old, two-year-old daughters loved to help Mrs. (unclear) shell peas. Neighborly kind of nothing.

RB: Well thats nice. Well lets maybe talk about the end of thewar. Where were you when you found out that it was over?

BP: I was in Ellington. I dont remember for sure, but it seemed as though there were rumors that the war was going to end.

End of side one.

BP: not that it didnt but, I dont remember. I remember mymother telling me that when the war was over in Clinton, everybody went to the center. Umm passing a bottle and yelling, etc., they had quite a celebration they were just happy. So it wasit was a good time. Heres something that, uh, trying to figure this out, they hanged somebody in effigy in Clinton. I dont remember who it was, so Ive yet to remember. It was some political concern and the town, several people, dontdidnt like whoever it was.

RB: I guess not!

BP: And they hanged him in effigy near the bank, near the post office. But that was something I do remember.

RB: Wow! Was thiswas he a communist or?

BP: I dont know. It seems as though it was Roosevelt, but it may have not been so I hesitate to say it was. I think it was Al Smith-four years earlier.

RB: So theyit was a picture of someone?

BP: No it was a littlescarecrow.

RB: Oh I see, okay.

BP: A little scarecrow, animation. And they hung him up. And they put the name on him

RB: Id be surprised if it was Roosevelt.

BP: Wellyou see, so when you write that out, it is for your information basically but I dont know.

RB: Hmmm. Thats something worth finding out!

BP: It probably was earlier than Roosevelt because he became president when I was about 12 or 14 and I would have remembered better than that.

RB: So, there wasnt really a big reaction, obvious reaction in Ellington.

BP: Not that I know.

RB: No celebrations or anything?

BP: There might have been. But I was watching babies. [laughter] I dont know!

RB: Did you hear from your husband at that time?

BP: No.

RB: When waswhen did he come back?

BP: Well, he was important in some of their activities. He was a major. And he was on the general command staff. Oh, his job was to rehabilitate the Philippine government when he was in Manila and he was in charge of getting them back on track. He didnt like that. He wanted to go home. So he kept--oh, in order to go home you had to have a combination of length of service, number of battles, I guess, length of time overseas. And he-he had all the points that was necessary to go back home. But they liked having him do that work so they werent sending him home right away. The war was over, I guess we said August and he didnt get home till December. He had to wait until they could find somebody else to do his work, I suppose.

RB: So, there was also the Occupation of Japan; rebuilding the Japanese government to our liking. [laughter]

BP: Teds mothers sisters husband, his uncle, was a textiles person. And he had built mills, Fall River, he was working in, uh, Sacco, Maine, so he got a job with the Occupation government rebuilding the textiles industry in Japan.

RB: So he went over to Japan?

BP: Yeah.

RB: How long was he there?

BP: I dont know. A year or two, I suppose.

RB: Did he feel, uh, that they received him well or were there problems?

BP: Not that I know--I dont know what problems he had. Teds aunt thought the children were the cutest little things and she sent home some pictures of these little Japanese children in their padded clothing. Really, she enjoyed it a lot.

RB: So she went with him?

BP: She went, too.

RB: Must have been a fascinating experience.

BP: I dont know whether she learned any of the language or how they communicated, but probably when he was, uh, in charge of rebuilding the factory activity, there were some interpreters to interpret his words and his instructions.

RB: Speaking of Japanese people, did you hear a lot about the internment of Japanese Americans? Was that?

BP: Not a lot, no. And we would have thought it was rather natural for them to do that.

RB: Mmmm hmmm, really?

BP: Yeah, natural. Who can trust anybody? That--that was a real problem because we heard rumors of submarines off of the Atlantic shore and the Japanese were coming to the California shore. And we didnt know who was friendly to whom. There was a tradition of that sort of thing--in Ellington there was a sanger band, a singing group. And there were people who were very outspoken. Just normally outspoken people. But during the First World War, they knew that this guy was a supporter of the Germans. Knowledge is whatever. If he made a positive comment about German people, the neighbors knew why he was saying it. So we would have probably considered internment of the Japanese just a normal activity of war.

RB: Hmmm. So there wasnt any uproar from anywhere? It was justyou felt safer because they were interned?

BP: I thinkI think you cant get that far in my emotions as far as safety. Uh, I looked around and I saw the world. And thats as far as I wanted to be involved. And that kind of thing has summed up a lot of my reaction to whats going on. If it doesnt come crawling onto my territory, um Thats me, Im not going to go out looking for trouble. Another case of believing that our government was doing the right thing.

RB: Did you know of anyone in Connecticut, in this area that was a possible suspect, besides this man?

BP: No, and--and he was the generation older.

RB: Right the First World War.

BP: No, no. Um in the history of Tolland there is a phrase (and this is the 1860 history of Tolland) there is a phrase that there were no Tories in Tolland during the Revolutionary War. There were some old curmudgeons who were opposed to everything, but no Tories. And I think that sums me up fairly well.

RB: Basically, you think it kind of has stayed that way through the years, no traitors?

BP: No traitors [laughter] right. I sort of think that.

RB: A safe place to live then.

BP: Very, very safe, I think.

RB: Um so when your husband returned from the war, how did youdid you think he had changed significantly as a result?

BP: Thats a good question because before we were married one of the people I worked for advised me not to get married because you never can tell how hes going to change. Well I dont think he changed that much. He was affected and he had malaria, and he woke up with cold sweats, but I didnt know him all that well, I mean, [laughter] Id only been married for three years at the time he came home. No, I dont think I thought he had changed, I thought he was him and thats, um, his evolution was just continuing to evolve.

RB: Mmm hmm, just normal.

BP: Yeah. But thethe other interesting kind of view, was the GIBill. He was eligible for a certain amount of education depending on the amount of time he had spent in the service.  And, um, we both thought that it was wise to update your fund of knowledge. . And he was eligible for this education, which turned out to be a very fine opportunity. He majored in Agricultural Economics as an undergraduate and he took his Masters degree in Agricultural Economics. And then he got a job in tobacco, stood that as long as possible. It was notit was not a rewarding industry. But thats what we did. And then we had a third child. Who I took to his graduation, so, we just did what was natural.

RB: Absolutely. So what was it like whenwhen you first saw him after the war?

BP: It was amazing. I went to Boston to meet him, and I was in this train station, and I was looking, and I was saying, "Am I going to recognize him? Am I going to recognize him?" Im not even sure if I did recognize him, but I know he recognized me. It was in the train station in Boston. And we stayed a couple of nights I guess, in Boston. And his folks took care of the children. But that that was my prime thought, will I recognize him.

RB: Uh huh, and you did! [laughter] Thats wonderful. And then what about when he came home, into your home? Was it difficult to adjust to having him there?

BP: Yes it was. Um, I had been in charge, and this was happening throughout all of this United States, I believe. Those who were home had established their routines, had established theirtheir hierarchy. There was the mother and the two daughters [gesturing high and then lower]. And this interloper, had come in. And this was the daddy they were talking about, we had talked about "Father" and "Daddy" for all of the time he was gone. Id some pictures and, um, heres flesh and blood, in charge. Fathers were in charge of the household and so forth. The little girls couldnt quite figure this out. They got used to him after a while. But, yeah there was adjustment to be made.

RB: I bet. Did hedid you feel like he kind of came home, and took charge as you said fathers usually do?

BP: Oh, well I wouldnt really say that. I would say, he tried to find his place and uh, "Who are these two little strangers climbing up on his table when they werent supposed to. Running around playing with toys, these little strangers." One was a year and a quarter, I guess, the other was two and a half. So I think he had more adjustment to make than we did. And for us it was enough.

RB: Thereit must have felt like instant fatherhood.

BP: Yeah. Because he had been very close to the oldest child, um, before he went. But she had changed in that year and a half that hed been gone. So, "who is this? This is not the baby I left!"

RB: Um, how do you think the war itself affected your life? (pause) Its kind of a big question, but

BP: Yes it is a big question. There are so many possible ways that we could, I could make a list of different ways thathmmm. Well one of the ways is that the normal changes that were going on after the war, all of those evolutions of life in the United States, we were part of . And we were always more or less in the main stream of what was happening. We were the right age to have someone go to war. We were the right age to get into the war effort, or the, um, all of the social change that came after the war. He was politically active and I was socially active and I did all this P.T.A. stuff And heres an interesting one, I had had a car right from the beginning of our lives, not all of my friends had had, a lot of them were dependent on the husbands car that I had one because I had a job. It was my car. But we had my car together. But when he was in the service, in South Carolina, he drove, I guess one day out of four, he used the car for carpooling. I used it for grocery and other shopping. When I came home I still had my car and when he went to get his degree, he needed the car. So that was a change. But I agreed he needed it, so it didnt distress me. When we came over here to Tolland, he was still taking his degree, uh, he still needed the car. And I was pretty much stuck here. When he wasnt going to school, I could go shopping and whatever else, but I had these little girls and a little boy and it was, you know the center of Ellington, its justits a center, and this is nowhere. I loved it but I missed the center. So my friends and I had Wednesday evenings. We went out to meetings, the Mothers Club, to the PTA, the Womens Club, and to the Mothers Club again. Four nights a month, my friends and I got together and talked about children, raising children, so we were pushing for schools. And that was one of the ways that the war affected us. We were in charge of, uh, see the men went to work, the women were in charge of social change in town. Thats my version. Men participated to the best of their physical ability, and I mean they were tired, poor fellas, came home and the women went out. [laughter] It was nice.

RB: Yeah, thats nice to have a little social gathering and

BP: Yeah, but thenBut when we got together at the PTA we thought, "Oh wouldnt it be nice to have picnics, family picnics," and, "wouldnt it be nice to have dinners?" And Teds mother and father came and babysat while we went to some social activities. Thatsthose were developing Tolland and, yes, we were very involved in building schools. Right from 1948, we built schools. We built addition upon addition upon addition onto the Hicks building. When we finished with that, or almost, we were crowded again so we built the high school and we brought the 5^th, 6^th, and 7^th grade into the high--and 8^th grade, into the high school before we had started keeping the 9^th grade. So then we had to establish a high school. And now we had to have a middle school. Now we had to have an elementary, Parker School. That came before something or other, maybe before the middle school. Weve been building schools ever since weve been in town.

RB: Well theres been so many more people moving into Tolland that you needed to

BP: Yeah, and now theyre talking about, "do we need to build onto that Birch Grove School which opened this fall? Do we need to have another school somewhere in town?" Weve got to talk about it already.

RB: And with such a need for teachers its gonna be

BP: Youll beyoull be hired somewhere! [laughter]

RB: I hope so. Okay. Do you think theres anything that we we didnt get the chance to talk aboutabout the war that you would like to talk about?

BP: Before you came I was thinking about the time between wars. We talked about social change after the second war. There was a lot of social change between the first war and the second war. Umround about explanation. We were talking about one of my daughters yesterday. I said she wasnt brought up to be a wife. She was brought up to be a woman. And the definition of wife changed quite a little between the first war and the second war, and a tremendous amount after the second. "Wife" was the person who took care of the needs of the family within the house. And "wife" didnt have any other interests of her own. She, uh, was necessary but my mother had a washing machine. Before that, I remember her scrubbing. I remember my grandmother with her wash tubs under the Elm tree in her back yard. The well was here, a great source of water. She took some into the house and heated it and brought it back out and washed in the wash tub. Wrang it through the wringer into the rinse, hung it on the clothesline. Thats how my grandmother didher neighbors sent some of their laundry out, my mother didnt as far as I can remember. She had a washing machine when I was relatively young. Now with all these machines youve got to go someplace! [laughter]

RB: Thats true, you have all this time on your hands.

BP: Yes, absolutely. Ill go out and then come back the dishes are clean.

RB: Thats a nice thing. [laughter]

BP: Yes, youve been brought up well. No, thats a good thing. Thats about the only thing Ive thought of.

RB: Uh huh, well its interesting to hear you speak this way and its also neat to look back and see that your mother, I think it was your mother you said did go to college.

BP: Yes she went to secretarial school. My father-in-law went to four years at URI. My mother-in-law took some course and taught. But evolution going out.

RB: Its a wonderful thing

BP: What does your mother do?

RB: My mother is a receptionist in ain a company called Capewell Horsenails. They make the nails for

BP: Oh yeah

RB: Its out in Bloomfield

BP: Yeah, I knew IdId heard the name somewhere. Yes, very good.

RB: Shes worked most of our childhood. When we were old enough that we were in school all day, she went to work.

BP: Normal.

RB: Right, normal for my generation.

BP: My oldest daughter, as a mother, I, never worked until she was through high school. My youngest child is, Floyds mother, always worked after, well always. And theres twelve years between them.

RB: Wow, yeah it is neat to see how things change

BP: Yes it is

RB: as a whole.

BP: So you think youll be a teacher?

RB: I know Ill be a teacher! [laughter]

BP: Yes, I think so, too. Thats great.

RB: Yeah. Alright, one last question. What do you think lessonsWhat lessons do you think should be learned about wars? What should I be teaching my middle school students about wars?

BP: They never solve anything. Theyre almost inevitable, you probably shouldnt teach that. You should teach a little hope that there may not be more wars, but. It probably sounds pessimistic, on the whole. But I dont think all of us can live in this world without war. You see whats happened in centralcentral Asia. And you know, you probably cant teach this, but I think an awful lot of the wars are religious.

RB: Mmmm. Thats very true.

BP: Well thats um, what should you teach? Um, support your government if you possibly can. Support your fellow creators, creations. Do the best you can for humanity. Just go with the flow when youre working with seventh grade because--or eighth gradewhen you find children who will come, some of them will have strong opinions. And you cant put um down, but you can try to modify them, "whoa, not too strong, kid," [laughter]

RB: Teach them to listen. Listen to other peoples ideas even if they dont change their mind.

BP: Mmm hmm. Thats a good one.

RB: So basically teach them to be good citizens, right?

BP: Yes. Do unto others and all that.

RB: Well, thank you for doing this interview with me.

End of Interview.